# Preflop and Flop action with KK

1/1 cash home game with mostly recreational players. Villain (~\$200) is loose (opens 80-90% of hands and generally will call opens prefrop with any 2 cards) but the table rarely sees 3-bets, and almost zero 4-betting.

Hero is UTG with KK and raises to \$4.

Villain in MP 3-bets to \$15, CO calls. Hero 4-bets to \$47, V calls, CO folds.

Pot ~\$110. Flop comes Jd7s3d. Hero checks his cards, no Kd.

Should Hero check, bet or shove?

Note: V is usually very aggressive, betting at almost every opportunity. Being out of position that day, i trapped him with quite a few hands and he caught wind of it, and has been more cautious to bet when checked to.

EDIT

Personally I am definitely betting in this situation, so my question is actually on bet sizing, although it is left open in case someone feels Hero should have a checking range here.

Also, would be good if answers can include value/bluff range in this spot.

• You mean Kd instead of Kh? Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 10:45
• oops haha yes edited. Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 2:01
• @sakon telling us hero has a stack of (~\$200) doesn't tell us anything without knowing how deep villain is. My answer would be completely different if villain was, say, (~\$150) deep as compared to equal stack sizes. Commented Mar 22, 2019 at 3:24
• @Jane I said Villain had ~\$200. I covered V but not by enough to matter, hence the info was not included in the question. Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 1:49

Easy bet. The villain is spewy, plays any two and will go with you. Try to get all the money by the river.

PS: I am thinking about 4-bet shoving. But I don't know if he'd call a shove.

• theres \$110 in the pot and about \$160 behind. what should the bet sizing be, with a bet? i assume you mean 4-bet shoving PF? Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 2:01
• I would bet about \$80 or \$90 and shove river on any blank. Yes, I mean 4-bet shoving preflop. Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 6:47
• I think you mean shove turn? Also I think you should bet something like 50 and then shove 110. Makes more sense, because you could bet-fold some bluffs. Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 17:37
• No, shove river. If you shove turn, you bet \$160 into a \$110 pot which is too much, in my opinion. The villain is spewy, which means he'll fold most of his range there, because is made of weak hands. Betting less and inducing a call, would commit him to the pot on the river. Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 17:39
• There is already 110 in the pot and 160 behind on the flop, or am I wrong here? Commented Mar 17, 2019 at 20:53

First, I agree with all decisions hero made except with an open sizing to 4x; I would default with a 5x at these stakes and potentially make it 6x or 7x depending on how the table reacts.

The most important consideration to make in this situation is pot geometry. In this situation specifically, pot geometry can translate to "how do I get all the money in". While you could go with a near pot size bet on the flop, I think this is a poor decision because your hand will be completely faceup to any competent opponent, with the absolute bottom of your range being AdKd.

If you make it a smaller size like \$50-\$60, you leave yourself plenty of room to get stacks in on the turn when villain has a hand that will pay you off, and you capitalize on the times villain is out of line with something like 78s or a flush draw. Potting the flop will most likely force middle pairs and flush draws to fold.

Imagine how the rest of the hand plays out when you pot the flop. The pot becomes \$330, with ~\$50 effective behind, which means you basically told everyone that you are committed to your hand. No player alive will fold to a \$50 turn shove.

Now imagine what it looks like when you bet \$60. The pot becomes \$230, with ~\$90 effective behind. Villain will be forced to call a decent chunk of his range on the flop, and will have to make a difficult decision when you shove turn.

If you couldn't already tell by the tone of this answer thus far, doing anything but betting is not an option at these stakes. If villain has a hand that beats us, so be it. Assuming he doesn't get out of line (which is probably not true), he stacks us when he has exactly AA or JJ, and we get his stack when he has AdXd, QQ, and depending on what he range looks like he might have things like AJ or JT, which will at least pay off your flop cbet.

My general strat in 4bet pots on Jd 7s 3d:

If I am playing an unknown or someone I perceive to be a weaker player, I will cbet around 50% of pot with all top pair+ hands along with AdKd/AdQd, and check fold everything else.

If I am playing a player I feel is capable of folding AJ, I will add AdX to my cbet bluffing range and bluff shove of most turns, for the sake of being balanced.

The above strategies assume that the pot geometry will play out the same as in Hero's scenario.

Also, if this is your first time hearing the term pot geometry, I would strongly recommend checking out this article and video.

• Thanks for the analysis. My concern with a \$50-60 flop bet is that it screams value, leaves very little fold equity (and thus makes it hard for me to be bluffing). we dont have enough behind to give AdXd fold equity, so no matter how we play, likely we will be all in against JJ+, AdXd. I was thinking of shoving flop (giving us more bluffs, and forces V to bluffcatch more with TT, AJ, maybe KJ. Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 3:47
• also +1 for looking at pot geometry. I was preparing for both V and CO to call to set up a flop shove, but perhaps that was too optimistic. Commented Mar 25, 2019 at 3:50