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This is a hand i played on ZOOM full-ring $0.01 - $0.02

  • I dealt bullets A♣A⋄ and was on MP.
  • I raised the pot 3.5 BB ($0.07), got a call from CO.
  • Flop came wet 7♠9♥8♠
  • I protect my hand with a Cbet by betting half the pot, get a call.
  • At this point was afraid i may be against a made str8 or a pair or a draw
  • Turn came complete brick 2♣
  • I check to keep the pot small, the CO fired 13.5 BB ! (half the pot), i called
  • River came also blank 3⋄, we both checked

Hover over the box below to see what my opponent had:

CO turned out 8♣ 9♣ for 2-pair and scooped the pot.

I have the strong feeling i made a horrible spew on turn, calling this half pot of 13.5 BB.

For some ungodly reason I thought my humble pair was still good. In most cases I simply fold if my opponent called me PF, then called my CBet, then raised me on turn after my check. I fold even with aces in this spot. I mean most players in these tables are playing a bit tight given the fact that you can play what ever hand you want in relatively quick time.

What you think? It's a good sign to fold premiums when you get a raise after you showed strength PF and Flop, no matter the flop (especially on dry flops -> sets)? I lean towards to yes.

  • He didn't raise your turn here, according to your description. Betting after a guy checks to you is far less of a show of strength than raising someone who has represented strength throughout the hand. I think you're giving this guy too much credit for a hand here. You showed weakness on the turn by checking when you'd been aggressive previously, so he took the opportunity to bet with what was a strong but vulnerable hand. – Chris Farmer Dec 21 '14 at 17:09
  • @Chris Farmer, indeed, betting a turn after a typical pot-control check looks not so of a strength but specifically on ZOOM games, where everyone can just hit the fold on previous raises and move on to the next hand in light-speed surely must show something better than typical FR play. I don't really like to play an AA on a bloated pot by barrelling, then see a 4-to-straight card and face an all-in.. I usually err on side of caution here, i find many differences between ZOOM and regular FR on that subject (people tend to have stronger hands) – user1165 Dec 21 '14 at 17:52
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I think you're focusing on the wrong part - the trouble is the flop. As you say, that's a very, very wet board and I agree. A half-pot bet gives your opponent 3-1 odds which basically leaves all the possible hands in there. Your c-bet was much too weak - I would consider doing a pot bet or maybe even 1.5 pot. You must work to take the pot right then & there.

In effect, you recognized the wet board but didn't do anything about it :(

This is a classic example of what Harrington means about top-pair being most valuable PF and flop. After that, your equity can only go down. You must play the flop very strongly in this scenario.

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    Thanx. You're right, i felt into half-pot tendency which looks like a typical no-hit cbet but i thought it was enough size to kick any opponent holding anything up to 1-pair. So you say it's better/profitable to bet an AA, say, like set on a straighty board, betting pot+ sizes? This seems good, opp could fold even a 2-pair fearing he's against a str8. But after this play i'm limited to fold against stronger resistance on future streets on this bloated flop, no? – user1165 Dec 22 '14 at 18:58
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    @vlzvl yes, you have the right idea. Put the opponent aside for a bit and just think about the board and the turn. How many scare cards come for you on the turn??? There's 9 spades and 6 cards that help the straight and 9 cards that pair the board (there's also the hearts but we'll leave those alone for now); assuming a full-ring game with 10 players dealt and burn cards, that leaves 28 cards in the stub and 24 of them are scary for you - that's terrible! So many few cards on the turn help you feel better about your hand. You basically must take it down on the flop. – Unknown Coder Dec 22 '14 at 19:04
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    to tell you the truth i didn't bother counting the scare cards on the turn; just by the looks it seems awful, the only good thing about it it's no monotone :) A final, pot-sized+ bet here it's the best, not only can kick people easier, its also cheaper than betting flop, then calling a turn/river. thanx jim – user1165 Dec 22 '14 at 19:27
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I think your call wasn't bad, and raising the turn might have been ok too. I think folding would have been worst of all.

First, lots of people at this level will just call and bet things without thinking a lot about it. When he called your flop bet he could have had:

  • Flopped set
  • Flopped straight
  • Two pair
  • One pair (overpair or with one card on the board)
  • Pair plus straight draw
  • Pure straight draw
  • Spade draw
  • Overcards

With the half pot amount that you bet, he's not getting terrible odds to keep going even if he doesn't have a made hand and he knows exactly what you have. His turn bet seems to be eliminating the overcards and maybe the pure draws, but he could still make this bet with anything else. Betting after the 2♣ came out doesn't have to be a show of great strength here -- it could also be some level of relief that any of the possible draws didn't improve, and since you'd checked here you showed some level of weakness.

So you're getting 3-to-1 against all these possibilities.

I PokerStoved this range against your AA:

  • Pocket pairs 77-AA
  • A♠ with T♠, 9♠, 6♠, or 2♠ for flush draw with straight draw or a pair
  • 9♠ with any spade overcard for top pair and a flush draw
  • Any 56 for low made straight
  • Any JT for high made straight
  • Any 9 with an overcard for top pair and an overcard
  • 87, 97, 98 for 2 pair

You're 48% to win this, so folding the turn would be way too tight.

You don't mention any stats on this guy that might indicate how much of this range would stick around had you raised this turn or bet the river.

6,600 games     0.000 secs  1,320,000 games/sec

Board: 7s 8s 9h 2c
Dead:  

    equity  win     tie           pots won  pots tied   
Hand 0:     48.803%     48.47%  00.33%            3199         22.00   { AcAd }
Hand 1:     51.197%     50.86%  00.33%            3357         22.00   { 77+, AsTs, A9s, As6s, As2s, K9s, Q9s, J9s+, T9s, 97s+, 87s, 65s, A9o, K9o, Q9o, J9o+, T9o, 97o+, 87o, 65o }
  • i don't think pairs would bet on this particular turn, except TT or maybe 66. I also think KK,QQ and probably JJ would have raised me PF so i don't think it's a high-pair confrontation here. My Opponent bet on a complete blank 2 spades so i'm 110% sure he has something and most of the times i sense (and have "enjoyed" a lot) at least 2-pair, especially on ZOOM. Most of the time he calls with a suited-connector or small pair, then hit a set or a draw. He might hit his set but feared on Flop of a straight, then bet the turn a "safe" amount. Board it's just too awful too get a grasp. – user1165 Dec 21 '14 at 18:09
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    I also did some pokerstove stuff and found that against: TT,66,ATs,A6s,JTs,T9s,98s,87s,65s,ATo,A6o,T9o,98o,87o,65o i'm about 37% to win, but i found on ZOOM than most of the marginal hands just want to get showdown (etc. ATo), fearing for a check-raise. If i remove the marginal ones, i left with about 25-35% of equity at best, almost correct for a half-pot raise but so WAWB. So marginal :) – user1165 Dec 21 '14 at 18:18

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