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I'm considering a hand I played in play money. I had JQo vs 33 and I don't remember exactly what position I was in but it was relatively late position. It looked like this:

I had 3k chips (play money) and my opponent had 8k so I was the short stack and he was the big stack. Preflop, I raised 3bb to 160 in late position and he called in one of the blinds.

The flop was 2T3. He had a set (333, 12% chance obviously). I had nothing but I c-bet the size of the pot (between 300 and 400, I don't remember). He check/called my big raise. I should have thought "wait a moment, he could have folded if he had nothing but he check/called so he probably has something"--he had some nice hand but I didn't determine his range.

But a Q came on the turn and it forced me to bet another pot-size bet and he re-raised (so he's telling me he has a set by doing this). I called :|

This was the story. My question is: what should I have done?

I think c-betting in general is proper because it's a dry board with one opponent.

But what about in this case where there is a bigstack?

  • Need to clean up the question. So he re-raised, told you he had a set, and you called? – paparazzo Nov 29 '16 at 15:39
  • yes but he don't told me literally that he had set so I would fold re-raise? but i was involved into pot – Grisza Nov 29 '16 at 18:03
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    How did the Q on the turn force you to raise, and if he "told you" he had a set, why did you call when you were drawing dead? – Herb Wolfe Nov 30 '16 at 4:37
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    Forgive me if English is not your first language, but this hand history is very difficult to follow. If you cannot remember position, action or pot sizes (as you mention a couple of times), you probably weren't paying enough attention to the hand anyway. – 3N1GM4 Nov 30 '16 at 9:25
  • yes English is not my native language and there are two sides: first if I folded I wouldn't know that he had a set, second thus I called I know that it was a bad move so I gained exp and bonus side it is play money – Grisza Nov 30 '16 at 19:55
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First of all, you both were quite deep in this situation therefore you were a big stack too despite your stack was smaller than a villain's.

Let's analyse situation. Pre-flop: You raised with JQo in LP (late position) and he called out of position either in SB or BB. You don't remember which position he called but it is quite important as SB in general will call with a much stronger holding than BB. Flop: 2T3. You didn't mention suits of cards as a flush draw will make a difference in this hand. Let say the board came all in different suits. In that case, it was pretty safe board for you to c-bet. So any bet around 50%-60% would almost always win it instantly. Your pot sized bet didn't make sense as it actually looked like you were bluffing and wanted just to win this pot. I would straightaway re-raise you on the flop with nothing on this flop. Now even if there was a flash draw, your 50% bet will win it again most of the time. Problem is this board can logically mostly hit SB/BB range rather than yours. Turn: Q comes and he checks again. Now you got a pair but you want to keep pot small. You should check back to extract some value/bluff catching on the river + to call a river bet will be much cheaper for you. Instead you bet pot size again. Very bad bet which will only get called and raised by better hands. You get re-raised on turn by a player who plays out of position. That is usually a very strong hand. You should instantly fold to that re-raise: you cannot beat anything other than bluff. If you call him you get pot committed and almost all in under any circumstances.

  • this was dry board and rainbow flop if it was wet i could semibluff and in addition he played bad he had to protect his set – Grisza Dec 6 '16 at 16:48
  • @Grisza Had to protect his set? He checked the flop and turn - that is the opposite of protect. He did not play bad. He got you to put in all you chips with top pair. – paparazzo Dec 6 '16 at 17:22
  • he would i meant – Grisza Dec 6 '16 at 17:31
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A c bet is appropriate like 90% of the time. 10% don't do it (with both made and un-made hands) just so they cannot count on a c bet.

If you hit nothing and no draw and flop that could have hit the villain then just check fold.

Neither of you are short stacked so c bet should not be effected. In a tournament you need to be aware you getting into a pot that could take you out but you are in the pot.

A full pot bet is a bit expensive. 1/2 pot has nearly the same effect at a lower cost.

On the turn a 1/2 pot bet would also have nearly the same effect. If you bet 1/2 on the flop you should bet 1/2 on the turn - don't announce the Q hit you.

A raise on the turn means a made hand or a bluff. Any value bet likely has you beat. He is probably not raising with a TT. If 2 or 3 hit then you have to suspect a set as a lone 2 or 3 is not likely to call a pre flop raise.

Say the re-raise was the size of the pot and you are getting 2:1. He would need to be bluffing 1/3 of the time to make that call. I don't see that as a bluff 1/3 the time. It is not like there was a strong draw to get you off of. In a tournament you cannot call and you should try and keep pot size down (especially against a bigger stack).

Villain had a hand that was likely best and would likely hold up. I am surprised he did not call the turn and then raise the river.

  • he slowplayed a bit thx for feedback – Grisza Dec 1 '16 at 2:23
  • Villain played very well versus this guy who played very poorly. You check raise the turn and make a big bet on river - that is the way to make some money. You cannot check call all streets - an aggressor will just check the river in position and you will lose a lot of money – Kanan Farzali Dec 3 '16 at 11:10
  • @KananFarzali I didn't check raised, the Villain did this – Grisza Dec 4 '16 at 19:35
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I disagree with the notion "A c bet is appropriate like 90% of the time. 10% don't do it (with both made and un-made hands) just so they cannot count on a c bet." made by Paparazzi, maybe in some game something like this is appropriate but this is 2016. The C-Betting secret is out, even if this is play money, C-Betting 90% is just plain bad. Using this poor logic makes your check back range (10%) very face up, either complete air balls or monster hands. Throw some middling pairs, top pair low kicker, and maybe a few of draws in your check back range. Doing this leaves your opponents guessing. Now that that is out of the way to the hand:

Pre-flop seems fine, if you move up to higher stakes you'll want to start making your opening size around 2.5x the BB, but here it's OK.

I agree with your logic on why you want to cbet the flop, but don't like the sizing. I understand that you want to maximize the number of hands that fold, but using that sizing just shoots yourself in the foot(you'll see why later). You generally want to cbet anywhere from 1/4 to 1/2 the size of the pot.

On the turn, since you bet pot on both streets and bloated the pot, when you get check/raised you have to put in the rest of your stack with a very mediocre hand because you're getting a pretty good price. You would have left yourself the option to get away from this type of hand, if you used smaller sizes from the start.

  • I didn't mean to offend anyone, just simply stating that logic isn't the best way to approach cbetting. I think you may have misunderstood my statement. If you're checking back the flop around 10% of the time, that range is obviously polarized to very poor hands and very strong hands that you're slow playing. That range will not allow the hero to pot control with medium strength hands at all. Being polarized while betting is very good, but having a full spectrum of hands in your check back range makes you very difficult to play against. No body that is a good reg at 1/2+ online cbets 90%. – Wyatt Shuler Dec 4 '16 at 21:36
  • I think were not seeing eye to eye here. Could you please tell me what your check back range looks like? I think "made and unmade hands" doesn't let me see the exact types of hands you're checking back. I think you have the right idea, but once you start breaking the actual hands down, you'll start to see that number is closer to 30-35% – Wyatt Shuler Dec 4 '16 at 21:52
  • Lol I give up.. – Wyatt Shuler Dec 4 '16 at 22:03
  • but if i c-bet 50% he knows that i c-bet if bet pot value he is confused but this is unprofitable – Grisza Dec 6 '16 at 17:06
  • What I was trying to say was the optimal/non-exploitive check back percent(which strongly coincides with where you're holding) is no where near 10%. By only checking back 10% of hands, you can be exploited. – Wyatt Shuler Dec 6 '16 at 17:19

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