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I was playing 0.1/0.2 game. I get dealt QTo. I missclick-limped. My opponent raised to 0.8, I call(I did wrong I think). At this point I know that my opponent is very tight-aggressive. Basically raised almost every hand he played and raised big. The flop comes 4 4 8 rainbow. I check, he bets 0.6. Because my range included 4 and 8 a lot more times than his and because his bet was pretty standard for him, I chose to bluff and made it 2.1. He 3bets me to 4.5. Again, this player is very much capable of this play and his range doesn't include 4s too often, so I pushed all in (15). I was right, he didn't have a 4 or even an 8, but he called me with A9o and wins in the end. Also note that during the game, I haven't gone crazy, played small pots generally, played really conservative, never even 4bet before.

Now, I know my limp and call preflop wasn't right but on the flop, I don't think I made a mistake. My read was right so the only thing left is that my opponent somehow knew I had air.

Am I missing something?

  • 2
    Entertaining! +1 – paparazzo May 10 '17 at 22:17
  • @Paparazzi Do you think I made a wrong move in the end? – khajvah May 11 '17 at 6:35
  • @Paparazzi didn't get it, nobody had J – khajvah May 11 '17 at 8:54
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    Some possibilities: Your opponent could have been on tilt. He might have misclicked or maybe misread his hand or the board. Perhaps he was playing drunk or playing lots of others tables which led to the mistake. Less possible: Your opponent has supernatural soul-reading powers, or you gave off a strong tell. – Dr.DrfbagIII May 11 '17 at 13:34
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Just a few observations/contemplations of the hand:

I get dealt QTo - I'm assuming you're out of position here. What position were you in?

My opponent raised to 0.8, I call - If you're intending to move forward in that spot a stronger play would be to cold 3bet. Or you could just realise you made a mistake and fold. What position was the villain in?

The flop comes 4 4 8 rainbow. I check, he bets 0.6. Because my range included 4 and 8 a lot more times than his and because his bet was pretty standard for him

  • Do you have a big enough of a sample or stats to ascertain this, or is it an assumption?
  • Do you truly know the opponent?
  • How likely is it that you know your opponents perception of you.
  • are you likely to have 44 88, an overpair here. I appreciate your read was right, however you did 4bet shove with air.
  • Why not just call?
  • Is he even contemplating your range?

This link may help you here: http://www.pokerology.com/lessons/levels-of-thinking/

his bet was pretty standard for him, I chose to bluff and made it 2.1.

  • if he is pretty agro and why not flat?
  • could you have folded to the 3 bet? (v.strong play)
  • raising with air can lead to a bloated pot + may induce 4bet bluff as seen,
  • would you play your strong hands this way? 3x Raise approx on the flop would generally indicate that youre looking to find out where youre at/steal.
  • is this a good spot to get it in good, could you have picked a better spot to bluff/steal the pot?
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  • I played with him for an hour or two probably. I am not sure if it is big enough sample but he was playing the same way constantly. I am wondering what would calling achieve here. My hand has no real value and it's unluckily that I would improve much. What calling achieve? – khajvah May 11 '17 at 13:25
  • Maybe he simply thought his ace high was good? The way to think about this though, and not focus on what your opponent did in the situation itself, but focus on what you have control over and what you can change to your game. – dcudonk May 11 '17 at 14:23
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Generally A9 wants to check a flop like 844 rainbow, because you are likely ahead of you opponent's range, but you don't want o play a massive pot. If you bet you can get bluff raised easily and you would have to fold. Basically, betting in this spot will cause you to be c-betting too much an dwill allow your opponent to outplay you.

He does bet, however and this is a mistake you want to capitalize on. Your strategy will likely be to raise most of your fours and full houses. Not all of them, since your calling range will be too weak, but most of them. And you will be balancing this out with a little too many bluffs, since he is c-betting too much. Good bluff candidates would be hands like 65s, 76s, 75s, 97s, T9s etc. with the backdoor flush draw. These hands are better than QTo, since they have worse showdown value, but better equity against your opponent's value range due to more backdoor straight/flush possibilities. Adding QTo to your bluffing range will cause you to be way overbluffing in this situation. There are so many better hands to bluff with!

Now he re-raises your raise. This is a bad play. You are representing a very strong hand (you also have more strong hands in your range than him) or a bluff. Obviously you will usually fold you all your bluffs to a raise :P and only continue with value. So, his re-raise is bad and is not really representing anything except A4 or 8s. What I would advise in this spot is to call with your entire range. Same thing, if you would re-raise, he is supposed to fold his bluffs and call with his value.

And same thing, you are never supposed to raise again, because he will fold his bluffs he isn't even supposed to have and call with value. And if you really want to have a raise range in this spot, which I strongly advise against, you should be even more selective with bluffs than before. QTo is not a good candidate to bluff with.

These hands are very weird, but you will be playing against crazy players a lot. Your play was crazy as well. Don't blame the 'bad players', but try to be a better player yourself. I hate to say it, but if you play QTo this way, you are overbluffing in this spot, making A9o probably a profitable call in a 4-bet pot on 844 rainbow.

Make a note and remember this player. You can capitalize on these kinds of players, but not with this strategy.

So to conclude. I would prefer a fold on the flop, at any point in the hand.

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  • @paparazzi quote an incorrect GTO statement I made, PLEASE. The exact calculations don't really matter, since I don't know exact ranges. It is a pointless thing to do... Now care to explain why 3.5x pot check shoving 884 rainbow with QTo is GTO? – Raymond Timmermans May 15 '17 at 20:46
  • I don't care to explain to you. My poker math is solid and you have been rude to me since you joined this site. – paparazzo May 16 '17 at 11:37
  • @paparazzi you won't explain, because you can't explain. Not because you don't understand, but because it can't be explained since it's wrong. I dare you, you can't explain it. There, I presented myself vulnerable. Go ahead, please. A real teacher can explain anything in a simple way. – Raymond Timmermans May 16 '17 at 14:59
  • @RaymondTimmermans Not interested. A real teacher would send you to the principals office. – paparazzo May 16 '17 at 15:02
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    I personally wouldn't have a checking range on this board unless my opponent had history vs a good Aggro guy. Hero limps in. He's a fish (is what I would think). Vs a fish from villain's POV it's an easy bet, usually they aren't going to play back like this with nothing unless their HUD stats say otherwise – Martin Dawson May 17 '17 at 10:25

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